Bokt.nl

**Geplaatst door de TopicStarter** : 22-04-06 01:15

[EG] Mare imported from Holland to England (see website)

Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 22-04-06 01:15

I wonder if any of you good people could help me find the previous owner/s or even the breeder of my mare. We have had her for nearly a year now and were not given her original passport therefore we do not know anything about her except that she was imported from Holland to England in around Jan/Feb 2005

Her full story is on our web site - www.horsetracer.info
Any information given will be held in the strictest confidence. I just want to know what she has done in her life.

Please try and help

Many thanks for your time

Kind regards

Laatst bijgewerkt door Anoniem op 22-04-06 14:02, in het totaal 1 keer bewerkt
Reden: Tag and information in title, according to rules.

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 10:20

Re: Does anyone recognise the mare featured on our web site?

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 10:20

Dear Catharine

You are not supposed/ allowed to open three topics all covering the same subject. This part of the forum is meant for horse-driving questions.
Your questions belongs at FA-FB or VMR-OV.

Moddies: wouldn't it be useful if there was a small English manual for our foreign members

I had to get used to all the Bokt abbreviations, for foreign users it must be a complete maze

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 10:25

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 10:25

Hello Catherine,

I have moved this thread to the part of the messageboard that is dedicated to searching 'lost' horses

In Bokttaal:

AR --> OV

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 10:42

Re: Does anyone recognise the mare featured on our web site?

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 10:42

Good luck with your search! Hopefully anyone here can help you.

I did send you a PM

Laatst bijgewerkt door Sosha op 22-04-06 10:51, in het totaal 1 keer bewerkt

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 10:50

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 10:50

Dear Catherine, what an awefull story, but how wonderfull of you to be willing to give this poor girl at least a chance of some loving list time of her life.

If you have the chipnumber that belongs to her chip (either in the passport you have or red out by your vet), I could do some info-hunting for you.
There are serveral websites that you can use to track owners by chipnumber and since these depend on info they get of current owners, these sites are not all up to date. I'm still listed as owner of a mare that I sold 4 years ago because the owner never took the time to change it. So maybe we could get some info like that.
Also I could call KWPN for you, just using the chipnumber in stead of names, to get information.
Sounds like mr. Wagenfoort is a chip-consultant with KWPN. Here, not only vets are allowed to chip, but we also have special chip-consultants. It would be interesting to hear what KWPN has to say about one of their consultants fixing fake passports in name of KWPN...
Send me the chipnumber and I'll go on a hunt for you. It's probably easier for a Dutch person to get some information than it is for you.

Good luck and I hope you can do something for Breeze to make her life a little easier and painfree. You're already giving her lots of TLC so her life is better already! Thumbs up for you lady!

Oh, if you want to contact me outside this board, you can e-mail me at francisdalebout@wanadoo.nl

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 11:18

Re: Does anyone recognise the mare featured on our web site?

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 11:18

Mr Wagenvoort probably chipped the real Natasja, who got lost. You can't blame the KWPN and mr Wagenvoort.

Breeze looks like a crossbred to me. Perhaps an accident between an piebald and a Frisian. In Holland these horses aren't worth a lot of money. They often end up at markets etc. most of the time they are sold to ridingschools as cheap riding horses.
In England Dutch horses are highly popular.
The real Natasja is probably put down. We are supposed to return the pedigree to the KWPN, but hardly anyone does that. Natasja's paper is therefore given to the cheap horse Breeze. Who is sold to the UK for a lot more than she is actually worth.

Catharine could you scan the paper? both the pedigree and the horse's markings?

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 11:52

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 11:52

She already wrote on her site that she doesn't have original papers, just a passport. She's talking about a passport that is issued in Febr. 2005, the horse is chipped and I assume that the chipnumber is the same as the one on the passport (is it Catherine?) so it couln't be an old pasport from a dead horse but must be a fake passport.
Not blaming KWPN, but I'm sure mr. Wagenvoort knows more than he's willing to tell (why else won't he give any info to Catherine, she contacted him and KWPN both on serveral occasions and noone is willing to give any information.. Although KWPN can't help it if one of their chippers is involved in illegal activities, it doesn't look good on them either).
Catherine, in the passport the features and markings of the horse should be written down. Do the things written in the passport match with how she looks? Does the chipnumber in the passport match the number of the chip when your vet reads it out? Are there any vet-stamps in the passport for shots she might have had? If so, can you make up a name or place where this was done?

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 11:59

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 11:59

Oh, and about the cross-breed... she might as well be a Paint horse... seen plenty of 'ranch-type' paints that have this kind of 'bigger' head. A good picture from the side where her tail doesn't cover her butt might shine some light on that, since Paints usually have more butt than other breeds.

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 12:03

Re: Does anyone recognise the mare featured on our web site?

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 12:03

How

I am. Horses born in '99 have their names beginning with an S

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 12:12

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 12:12

Is that mandatory of just something most KWPN-breeders do?
If it is mandatory, it's just another proof that the passport is fake. If it's not, than it still wouldn't matter, the chipnumber should match and I also think it's strange an experienced person (which you would assume a chipper is) would accidentally state a horse being six while it's at least 10. Those are differences even I can see and I'm not good at 'reading' teath at all!

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 12:19

Re: Does anyone recognise the mare featured on our web site?

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 12:19

KWPN uses letters to indicate in what year a horse was born. Currently we have to use the letter B. My own horse is 6 (born in 2000) and is called Tiquilia, so a horse born in '99 should have a name starting with an S.
A kwpn horse with a name starting with an N is born in 1995. So that would make "Natasja" or Breeze indeed 10 years old at the time she was bought.

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 12:28

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 12:28

Yes, I know that it's done like that, what I ment was if it's mandatory by KWPN
(o.k. to explain what I ment in Dutch: wat ik bedoelde is of het echt verplicht is door KWPN, of dat men dat gewoon 'uit gewoonte' zo doet. Maar idd.. Natasja zou dan op die manier kloppen met die 10 jaar (mits ze de Q overslaan), dus veel maakt het niet uit. Wel stom om dan in't paspoort 6 jaar te zetten terwijl de naam dus ook aangeeft dat ze 10 is).

Back in English... What I also mentioned above in Dutch is that if it's mandatory to use the right first letter, it would be even more stupide to put 6 years in the passport, 'cause the name Natasja would also indicate that she's 10. That is... if some letters aren't used, 'cause if I 'count' back, the N would mean 1994 (T in 2000, N = 6 letters back so '94. Or is the Q not being used?)

OH well.. doesn't matter anyway, I think we can safely say this passport was 'fixed' with this horse. If chipnumbers match you know for sure.

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 12:54

Re: Does anyone recognise the mare featured on our web site?

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 12:54

Catherine wrote:"Although Breeze has a KWPN passport she is not actually a KWPN registered horse and therefore they hold no information on their database. Work that one out."

Yes that is possible. A few years ago all Dutch horses had to be chipped. There were a few possiblities:

-a your horse had a pedigree: this caused no problem. A chip consultant chipped your horse, all the details were send to the studbook and after a few weeks you had your paper with additional chipnumber.

-b your horse didn't have a pedigree. then there were two possibilities:
- you were a member of the dutch riding association and rode competitions. The dutch riding organisation had a special register for sporthorses. They used the same procedure a the studbooks: chip was inserted and your papers were send to you.
- you weren't a member of the dutch riding association: then a studbook had to register your horse. EG the KWPN registered your horse, but only because it had to be chipped and registered. Of course nothing was known of its origin. Therefor the KWPN doesn't know antything about your horse.

The time that this was introduced was january 2005, this explains why your horse's paper was purchased at the 22nd of febuary 2005.
Mr Wagenvoort probably chipped your horse in December or January 2004/2005. And mr what's his name was registerd as its owner Because she had no paper she was given a date of birth. Here it went wrong; either mr Wagenvoort isn't very experienced at looking at horse teeh and thought your horse was 6, or the owner said she was 6 because that would be more handy when he sold her.

Maybe your horse was already in a poor state when the KWPN-chipper came. But this is not his fault. All horses (including slaughter horses) had to be registered. so he just did his job.

Yes the Q is left out

sorry forgot to mention and yes we have to do it. They just put a letter in front of your cool name e.g N-Breeze

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 13:14

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 13:14

Sorry, have to correct you on that Albertine.
Non registered horses (my registered Paint was qualified like that 'cause it's an US registree) were not chipped by KWPN but by KNHS. KWPN ónly chips and registeres KWPN registered horses, just like all the other Dutch breed organisations only chip and register their own breed. All non registered horses were chipped by KNHS, the sport-organisation, also when you weren't a member or didn't ride KNHS shows. I know 'cause my Paint had to be chipped by them. Nowadays Paints and Quarters must be chipped by Holstud, 'cause now they recognise the American registrees of these two breeds, but in the early days of chipping (my old Paint got her passport and chip in 2001 'cause I attended shows in Germany and to show abroad you already had to have a passport) it had to be done by KNHS.
Non registerd horses are still chipped by KNHS.

Also, the passport was already introduced earlier, all sporthorses and horses that came on public roads had to have a passport at Jan. 1, 2004. The chip came later, but the passport already had to be there.

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 15:17

Re: [EG] Mare imported from Holland to England (see website)

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 15:17

https://bedrijfsnet.pve.agro.nl/servlet/page?_pageid=165&_dad=pbs&_schema=PORTAL30
here you can enter your chipnumber and see where your horse is registered.

This is the article on chips in the KWPN-magazine, you can also find the telephone number of the chipper of your horse in this article.
http://www.kwpn.nl/cms/servlet/cms.servlet.MediaStreamer?mediaId=1125

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 15:53

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 15:53

Ok, Martine, I am sorry I said your info was wrong, I stand corrected through some info I got through PM...
It appears that KWPN still chips unregisterd horses.

The information I had comes from the KNHS and they refuse to chip and give passports out that can be chipped by one of the other organisations. I assumed that this goes for every organisation, but aparantly, that's not the case.
So the passport Catherine has, cán be a KNWP passport even though the horse isn't a registered KNWP. But than, KNWP should have information on file that can be given to her, or else what would be the use of chipping and giving out passports if a horse can't be traced. (ok, don't answer thatone... that's a whole other discussion that we'd better not have here). So in my opinion it's still strange to say the least that nobody she contacted was willing to give her ány information. It should be on file and these files are public to everyone. That's how I found out my old Paint mare was still on my name even though I sold her.. I was trying to trace her when she got lost two years back.

I got my - obviously wrong - info from the KNHS, when I spoke to them not too long ago. Because my horses is being DNA-registerd and that has to be added to the passport (that was issued by KNHS), I wanted the pedigree of my horse added in her passport at the same time. But although I have the original registration certificate they won't add her pedigree in it. If I want a passport with her pedigree in it, I have to get a néw passport and they won't do that for me, I have to go to Holstud in stead. At that occasion they told me they only chip unregistered horses and horses with an unrecognised registree. Só, I'm the one with the wrong information here, I'm sorry, my mistake. I should have know you can't rely on info you got from just one organisation, it's commonly know that every organisation here has it's own interpretation of the rules... half the time they don't even know all the rules themselves.

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 16:36

Re: [EG] Mare imported from Holland to England (see website)

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 16:36

hihi, and there was me thinking I was going mad

It is al very blurry, and you could have been right all the same.

They used to chip only the horses of their own studbook, in the early days. But at the end all the lazy people (ME!) wanted to get their horses chipped as well. So one chippy person or a vet came and did the whole yard.
Then you had the possibility to send it to your own studbook, or the KWPN would sort everything out. We all had our passports returned with the correct studbook. The only thing is...I don't remember what passports the unknown horses got. Did it say KWPN or KNHS? I'll ask my friends tonight...

It is indeed strange that nobody wants to talk. I think people are affraid Catherine might sue them,although they might have acted correctly.

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 16:44

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 16:44

As far as my information goes now, the unregistered horses got a 'neutral' passport with PVE on it (productschap vee en vlees) and without the logo from KWPN (or other breed, since every breed organisation is allowed to chip unregistred horses) on it.

So another question for Catherine (hope she will visit soon again 'cause this case intrigues me), what does the outside of the passport look like. What does it say (KNPV or PVE) and does it have the KWPN logo on it?

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 19:54

Re: [EG] Mare imported from Holland to England (see website)

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 19:54

I just went to our yard and asked the owner about slaughterhorses and markets etc.

There is no slaughtermarket in Rotterdam. There is a cattle market in Utrecht. We do have occasional cattlemarkets in villages in summer but they are more annual festivities rather than real slaughtermarkets.
Slaughterhorses do not wear tags around there necks and photo's are not taken either. Horses that are going to be exported wear a lead in their manes.

KWPN does chip all sorts of horses, but he didn't know either whether an unregistered horse would get a KWPN logo or a neutral logo on the passport. To him it seemed logic that at least one of the parents had to be known to give a horse a KWPN passport.

**Geplaatst**: 22-04-06 20:14

Re:

Geplaatst: 22-04-06 20:14

Horses that are being exported have to be chipped as well nowadays. It's a long story, but in my search for my old mare I've spoken to many people, from people at laughterhouses to officials at the horsemarket in Utrecht.
What it all comes down to is that horses that are being slaughtered or exported must have a chip. If they don't have one they will get one at that moment. But strangely enough there are no computer-records of these chipnumbers (in fact, one nice man went through a pile of forms from all the exported horses that were sold on the market in Utrecht that week. He had no computer file/system where he could enter the chipnumber to see if a certain horse was exported. That's why I'm not the biggest fan of chipping, the whole system isn't lined up and isn't working like it should
Also, when I called some slaughterhouses, same story there, no system to put a chipnumber in to see if a certain horse is slaughtered.

Only thing you could do with the chipnumber is check on these websites (and if it's working like it should, the PVE-site should give the correct information) and you could call KWPN to ask them for info about the horse with that number.

**Geplaatst**: 25-04-06 01:50

Re: [EG] Mare imported from Holland to England (see website)

Geplaatst: 25-04-06 01:50

to me it is clear that this Breeze is not a Paint, I have compared her photo with a photo from a Frisian mare and she has exactly the same type of head, also the same type of ears. I also had another look at the picture that shows Breeze in the pasture and also her body looks a lot like the body of a Frisian mare, of course her footlocks are not so big and she looks a bit more slender than most Frisians. I also think that she's a crossbred and because of that she is sold with a false passport. I wish you a lot of succes but to be honest, I think that you're looking for a needle in a haystack...

**Geplaatst door de TopicStarter** : 25-04-06 12:28

Re: [EG] Mare imported from Holland to England (see website)

Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 25-04-06 12:28

Hi Folks,

Sincere thanks for all your help with this. I have been given more info by my new friends on this site than from anywhere else. KWPN and KNHS say they know nothing of the mare as I contacted them initially.

I have tried to contact Han Nijen Twillaar by letter with stamped addressed envelopes but he never replies. I do not know the language otherwise I would call him. I was told his english is bad so me calling him would be hopeless.

The details from the passport we have are as follows:-

Her registered name is NATASJA
Identification Number 528003 IRO16517
Microchip Number 528210000655974
Previous Owner: J H NIJEN TWILLAAR, SCHUILENBURGERWEG 48-A
7447 RP HELLENDOORN

If anyone wants to reply to me could they e mail me at catherinesteven@yahoo.co.uk as I will be able to reply quicker.

Thanks again for all your help

Cath x

**Geplaatst door de TopicStarter** : 25-04-06 12:33

Re: [EG] Mare imported from Holland to England (see website)

Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 25-04-06 12:33

Hi
Sorry me again

If anyone does speak to anyone that knows my mare all I want to know is:

1. How old she really is?
2. What she has done in her life and if she has competed
3. If she has had a foal
4. Who owned or bred her

If anyone does come forward they have my word that no names will ever be mentioned and all information sources will not be divulged. This is purely for our own information and our veterinary surgeon

Thanks guys

Cath

Replies to - catherinesteven@yahoo.co.uk

**Geplaatst**: 25-04-06 12:35

Re:

Geplaatst: 25-04-06 12:35

I think a child of his lives next door, on Schuilenburgerweg 48. Maybe he or she speaks englisch.

I'll send you a email with the phone numbers.

**Geplaatst**: 26-04-06 01:37

Re:

Geplaatst: 26-04-06 01:37

Nou, we weten in ieder geval zéker dat het paspoort níet bij dit paard hoort... chipnummers zijn nog niet vergeleken dus of het expres fout is of dat er 'gewoon' paspoorten verwisseld zijn weet ik nog niet, maar dit staat in het paspoort:
MARKINGS - brede doorlopende bles, rechter neudgat omvattend, linker neusgat indringen, witte onderlip

en dit is Breeze:
Afbeelding

Inmiddels telefonisch contact geweest door mij met de laatst geregistreerde eigenaar in't paspoort, maar helaas was die wegens persoonlijke omstandigheden zelf even niet te spreken en degene die ik wel kreeg kon me niet helpen. Eind van de week mocht ik terug bellen, dus dat doe ik dan maar.

Ik hou jullie hier ook op de hoogte, met Catherine heb ik via e-mail contact.